The Texas Court of Appeals has finally restored order to one tiny corner of the universe. It has ordered the return of the Texas Polygamist Children to their parents holding that there was an almost complete failure of proof to justify such an action. You can read the opinion here.
The removal of the children at th Texas Polygamist Compound is the latest example of knee jerk panic leading to mass violations of human and constitutional rights.
I am braced for all the outrage comments but The Texas Court Of Appeal did the right thing in returning the Texas Polygamist Children to their parents. What happened here was nothing more than a an attempt to use the court system to kidnap children because we panicked. This was a “legal lynch mob”. Not legal in the sense that what was done was legitimate, legal in the sense that it was a judicial lynching.
I am not saying there are children who were not in legitimate danger. I frankly agree that they may have been. What I am saying is this is not Communist China or North Korea. Those parents had and have rights. You can not mass bypass the rights of all these parents by doing it tecnically right for a few and using “panicked supposition” for the rest.
Panic and fear are not legal grounds to circumvent the law. How have these knee jerk panic decisions that ultimately wasted time and money with no real benefit to the children protected those rights? The children are going back. (an appeal if any will fail) and if anything was going on the parents and their lawyers are ready and loaded for bear.
Is the greater tragedy that the children must be returned or that it will now be more difficult then ever to help them even doing it the right way because the state tipped its hand with the panic move.
I have said it before and I will say it again. The greatest threat to mankind is knee jerk panic and knee jerk stupidity. The public sees something that so disgusts and shakes them to the very core of everything that we deem decent and the next thing you know all hell breaks lose.
It is like throwing a rock into the lake and the ripple effect. At the center where the rocks hits is the incident that disgusts us. What we don’t think about at the time is that those ripples moving outward begin to consume everything in their path that at the closest point may be similar but at the the furthest point from ground zero, we are burning books, arresting every kid who draws a disturbing picture in his notebook and calling the cops on our neighbor because he drives and ice cream truck and therefore must be abusing children.
At the time we are all consumed with our panic and making irrational decisions we completely forget about the fact that for every decision of flawed logic we make at the center of the ripples, cause and effect pushes outward with often tragic consequences that we have neither thought about nor care about in our all consuming fear and hate. Knee Jerk panic at its’ best.
For all us constructionists I am aware the Constitution of the United States certainly does not prohibit legal lynchings by specific words but I don’t have to go back and read it to know that the words “blessings of liberty” are in there.
A “rubber stamped” removal of the children based on no proof at all chills me to the bone. In order to lose the rights instilled by that blessing, we have something called Due Process. I don’t have to read the Constitution to know those words are in there as well. Due process includes having to meet your burden before punishment is inflicted.
While I certainly understand the argument that because there was compliance with the Texas Family Code there was no due process violation, using statisitics and self serving reports and conclusions to remove children en-mass by-passing your burden of proof for each indiviudal parent-child relationship sounds smells bad to me…..
I did look for the words “legal lynch mob” but could not find them anywhere. If anyone reads the Constution and finds them please let me know.
You can read the Constitution Of The United States right here.
I say legal lynch mob… What do you think?
BLOG UPDATE 5/24/08 The State of Texas has filed an emergency appeal to the Texas Supreme Court. You can read the emergency motion here.
BLOG UPDATE 5/29/08 The Texas Supreme Court Upholds Court Of Appeals Ruling and Orders the Texas Polygamist Children Returned To Their Parents. Read about it here. Read the Supreme Court Opinion here.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Maybe I’m wrong, but wasn’t there some abuse of children here? I guess if a 50 + year old man wants to sexually take a 13 year old, that’s fine too. Whatever the world wants. But frankly, I thought there was some serious child abuse going on. I don’t mean to sound “knee jerk” but I sincerely thought that was one of the problems there and why the state moved in. Of course hindsight is always 20-20 vision isn’t it?
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
@LewP: You are not wrong, the state was able to sustain the burden on a few of the children. What is wrong is the way they went about it has put the children in even greater danger if they are being abused
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
These people are sick, and they deserve what they got. They are raising kids to think that polygamy is okay, and, like it or not, it’s illegal in America. Also, 18 is the age of majority, so you simply cannot have sex with a child. They don’t want to follow our laws, they need to be dealt with.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:33 pm
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services is an agency acting under the Executive Power of the Constitution. George Bush as the President, is the head of the Executive Power of the Constitution.
Didn’t Bush do exactly what the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services did when he presented his lies to congress to get us into the Iraq war? Where’s the appellate court when you need them?… I mean congress. lol
Executive agents always lie. It’s their nature!
I agree, legal lynch mob, but definitely unconstitutional….
Most people don’t know the difference betwween the legal government(defacto) and the Constitutional government (dejure).
Zeke Laymans last blog post..Ron Paul #1 on New York Times Best Seller List
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
@ LewP:
“Maybe I’m wrong, but wasn’t there some abuse of children here? I guess if a 50 + year old man wants to sexually take a 13 year old, that’s fine too. Whatever the world wants…”
Sure – And if there was abuse, and children in danger, we need to help those children. But there was no evidence, or reason to believe that all 400 children were in danger of abuse. You can’t seize 400 chlidren and seperate them from their parents on the fear that *some of them might be in danger. That’s not acceptable.
I live in a new sub division with 150 homes. It is likely that at least some of the children in my subdivision are being physically, emotionally, or sexually abused. Do you think the state should come and take all the children from 150 homes in my neighborhood, and place them in dangerous foster care?
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:51 pm
I believe the age for marriage in Texas is 15. Coming in a taking our children in the middle of the night- sounds like communist china if I didn’t know any better.. Arrests without merit. The inability to think with intelligence on a lawmaker – not turning in a fellow cop – that makes you as criminal as them. We have become what we hated and feared the most. And someday someone will attack us to show us they do not like what we are doing to them – oh wait – they have. Believe it or not – we are the ones who should be trying to change.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Nobody except the people involved really knows what went on in that compound, but what is known, is that this country is (supposedly) a nation of LAW – which means that the rules are spelt out ahead of time and everyone is expected to obey the law, even government officials. If the laws don’t work, then do the right thing and change them, but don’t just ignore them. Hitler operated on the theory that the end justified the means.. I hope the country isn’t moving in that direction, but I fear it is.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Brian,
I agree 100%. I made similar statements on my blog too and was accused of supporting rape. This isn’t about rape, it is about civil liberties. If it was about rape, the rapists and the victims would be the players in this case, not an entire religious sect.
The fact is, if the government can seize children en masse, not because of imminent threat, but for cultural beliefs, then they could seize the children of thousands of immigrants here in Minnesota because two major immigrant populations, much larger than the FDLS, practice widespread child marriage and polygamy. The government must treat each child and each case separately. Everyone has a right to due process and their day in court. They cannot persecute and entire culture simply because they exist.
This is a victory for civil rights and the constitution.
However much I despise their culture, I do not have the right to kidnap their children.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Wiini: A “neighborhood” is not a “compound of a religious group that practices differing sexual practices”.
While they may have been heavy handed about it, and while their evidence sucked, there was indeed a need to take action of some sort there. I’m not saying the action taken was the correct one, but there are laws being violated by that group and that need to be dealt with.
Their actions were wrong. The intent and motivations behind those actions were not.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:59 pm
The authorities only have a phone call from a girl that allegedly stated abuse.
No proof other than that was needed for the authority to move in and take over 400 children.
To this day, the authorities do not know who the original caller was, and have not proved abuse.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:59 pm
@ brassmonkey:
Smoking the herb is illegal in America (for now). Does that mean that anyone who teaches their children that the herb is not The Devil should have their children taken away? Discrimination is illegal in many contexts and jurisdictions; does that mean that racists should have their children taken away? How about people who smoke cigarettes? Once smoking is illegal, does that mean that smokers should lose their children?
Whether something is wrong and whether something is illegal are separate–though not completely separate–questions. Laws change, mores change, and holding an opinion and expressing your beliefs to your children is not a crime, at least not yet.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
I agree ,legal linch mob .
artracejr
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
I agree with most of what has been said. Here are my thoughts:
1. They are different. That doesn’t mean that they are evil or necessarily wrong (no specifics)
2. It was a family, not a cult. You’d be hard pressed to find a news report that said “Texas Polygamist Family” instead of “Texas Polygamist Cult”. (Media distorting/biasing truth)
3. Raid was unconstitutional. Period.
4. TX Court of Appeals wins a bit of credibility for this judgement. Good job.
5. I am against the sexual assuault of children. If it is proven, press charges.
6. Kids get hurt, especially when there are 400 of them on a ranch. I’m also completely for corporal punishment. A good spanking an the occasional slap can put a kid in their place. Breaking an arm is another thing altogether.
7. I believe that the officers involved in the raid had honorable intentions. However, the law MUST be followed. Charges should be brought against the officials in charge of the operation.
That is all.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:09 pm
I’m surprised that they removed the children an I’m surprised you guys support it.
This isn’t a community of separate individual families but a compound based on a common ideology.
WHEN MORE THAN HALF OF THE UNDERAGE GIRLS ARE PREGNANT… HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY LETTING THEM GO BACK!??!?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:13 pm
To everyone who feels (probably rightly) that the polygamist church deserved it:
Allowing the government to charge in, guns blazing, on a hunch gives the government a legal precedent you can never take away.
Let them off the hook on this debacle and they can start charging in other extremist groups, targeting less and less extreme groups until the point where thanks to the citizenry’s apathy and complacency you’ll find raids NRA meetings, photographers associations, you name it.
Give the government an inch and it’ll take a mile, so only give the government an inch if you are willing to give up the mile.
Daniels last blog post..*AMP and Runaway Scripts
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I have only heard about this whole ordeal from bits and pieces of news bytes. I don’t agree with the fact that all these people were holed up in a building and the older men were sleeping with the younger women, and were they related?!
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I could be wrong but I thought it was at least evidence of improper sexual conduct when the girls under 18 are pregnant. It is known that these people break the law by having multiple wives and having sex with children. I agree that the authorities went about this in the wrong way, but it is pretty obvious there is something wrong in this situation. I think we have enough cults out there and would be happy to see them shut it down. These same people find a way to kick out the young men or at least prevent them from marrying so that they can arrange marriages between old men and children. It is a prostitution ring in the guise of religion.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I’m no lawyer, but since the evidence collected was all a result of an illegal warrant based on fake charges, doesn’t that make it inadmissible? Now even if they did collect DNA proof that some 40 year old guy was the father of a 13 year old’s baby, don’t they have to throw it out and look for another way to prove it?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Legal Lynch Mob ! i like the term. I believe this relates to the public being fickle, your so called ‘knee jerk reactions’. Our forefathers had enough insight to design the constitution in such a way that would severely limit our ability to be just that, fickle. Take the electoral college for example. By not allowing the popular vote to elect the president, special electors get the overall say ‘just in case the public is wrong about who to lead the country’. Guess the masses got it wrong in 2000. I’m not saying it is good or bad, but government works slow for a reason.
The media is really the ones to blame here. Cable news shows like Nancy Grace, Glen Beck, and the like tend to have tone about there shows that comes off very negatively IMHO. Modern Day Fear Mongering mixed with ridiculous side commentary that gets everyone buzzing. They were the ones attacking this one on a moral issue.
Although it may be a moral issue, which the court called a ‘pervasive belief system that allows underage marriage and underage pregnancy’. The court believed this is not an immediate threat to the children and no evidence whatsoever to support abuse. So apparently these children all had happy loving homes and Texas CPS decides to completely decimate a sub culture because they didnt agree with their ‘pervasive belief system’. Big Payday coming for the FLDS on this one, can you spell L-A-W-S-U-I-T ?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:24 pm
umm hey guys please review what lynching is k thx! http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576853/Lynching.html
cf Emmitt Till
call a spade a spade, not an uzi!
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
A flair for the dramatic, eh, Brian? Lynch mob?
Where do you propose that these girls, these alleged products (and subjects) of sexual abuse, go? The due process you speak of – which is, I agree, germane – applies to the now MIA adult male abusers. Abusers which no one in that compound has any spoken intention of keeping away from these children given a second chance. A second chance that they now have.
I agree, really, that a better plan should have been executed. In the absence of a better plan though, the tie has to go to the victims of sexual abuse and those children needed an advocate outside of that compound.
I fail to see the justification to allowing child victims of abuse – under Texas law – remain in the hands of the people that facilitated that abuse. Their M.O. didn’t work in Utah, it’s not working in Texas and thanks to liberal lawyers pining away for TV time, they will soon have the chance to relocate and try their game in another location too.
That is not what the Constitution intended, was it Brian?
Michael M.s last blog post..Fronte di Verdure!
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
15 years old for marriage in Texas????????
You Americans are totally arse backwards.. they are STILL children at that age, it IS child abuse and you SHOULD go to prison, “legally” sanctioned or not, it is a MORAL crime, and ANYONE involved are diseased.
YOU PEOPLE ARE THE REASON GUNS WERE INVENTED!
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:30 pm
It is the pedophile part that bothers me not the polygamy. Actually is it even possible to break the polygamy laws? The state only recognizes one wife and he can have sex with other women or even call the others wives, but as far as the state is concerned he only has one wife.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:31 pm
@ Sam Yes. What you are referring to is called the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine. It is much like the exclusionary rule(which only applies to criminal cases). Basically no evidence will be admitted that is obtained illegally or not in good faith.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
No, a lynch mob would have hung all the parents and left with the children. Hence the term “lynch”. What you have here is a simple abuse of power. Which is common in Child Protective Services. Just think about it, anyone, anywhere can call Child Protective Services (CPS) and claim that you have done the most horrific things to your child. They do not have to give their name or a means of contact. And the CPS MUST open a case and start a formal investigation of you and your family. They get to go to the school and question your children and the friends of your children… without letting you know or getting your consent. They get to inspect your home, and determine if it meets their standards. Not the governments, just the person inspecting it. They get to decide if you get to keep your children or not. And they get to do ALL of it without any oversite. They are the Gestapo personified. And they hold way too much power.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:33 pm
@Michael M.: always the flair….
)
I do believe the framers intended that the guilty go free rather than the mob run the show….
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm
@lewp
You’re saying exactly what Texas said. But we don’t walk into people’s homes and arrest them because we heard they were doing something. The abuse tip turned about to be a prank phone caller who was arrested.
Russs last blog post..Mr. T says “Treat your mother right.”
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Bravo Sir,
I have been outspoken about this subject to my friends, coworkers and the media since I first read about it the day it happened. Every time I would see some journalist spout crap on CNN.com about this subject I would try to contact the journalist via phone about how wrong they were and how they are just making these people look bad with no supporting facts. This was a ridiculous thing that never should have happened. Because of one call that could’ve easily been a hoax our government went in and literally stole all of these children from their parents just because they were a part of the same religion as the accused man. How would some catholics like it if a catholic parent raped a girl and so the government went door to door and took all children from catholic parents. The simple fact is that America has persecuted anyone who practices bigomy since the 1800s. This is why mormons colonized utah before a great westward expansion happened to escape this religious persecution that is NOT SUPPOSED TO OCCUR IN AMERICA. People fear anything different and thats what these people are, different. I am very pleased to finally see these children returned. This does not mean I agree with bigomy or rape in any way.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Nick,
“How would some catholics like it if a catholic parent raped a girl and so the government went door to door and took all children from catholic parents.”
If the catholic faith advocated raping children I would think that it would be a good idea. The FLDS is a sect of a religion that advocates breaking the law. If something is clearly obvious should you ignore it?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Yeah I know how much the framers enshrined child abuse and rape… but civilization has advanced over the past 232 years. Such acts as incest and intercourse between adults and minors are no longer looked kindly upon, and with good reason. Those children’s lives are ruled by fear and ignorance. They have been involuntarily cut off from the outside world. They have no trusted third parties, such as public school teachers, in whom to confide. As the saying goes, absence of evidence doesn’t mean evidence of absence.
Texas law enforcement could have handled the situation more professionally, rather than a bunch of rowdy cowboys, but in pure theory that is why we have government: to protect the defenseless from the monsters among us.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Independent self sustaining communities are the greatest expression
of freedom while they are the undeclared #1 enemy of state authority,
they are also the embodiment of everything America is supposed to stand for.
I never believed a word of this story. And I never will.
This story was really only about killing another US commune.
The rest of what happened just so many of those ripples you spoke of.
People reacting emotionally to the “sex scandal” ad “children in danger”
buttons that always work so well at controlling and distracting them.
(Now I dont want to fall into this trap myself, because as I said,
I believe it to be a distraction) But as to the girls ages,
(if in fact there was anything of merit to that side of things)
Here it is:
Girls as young as 14 have been having babies and raising families for
thousands of years in societies that were vastly more moral and family
orientated than the one we are currently living in. Its so funny, we
live such short lives that our collective frame of reference becomes
ridiculously narrow. We try to reinvent civilization… Such folly.
Live and let live I say.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
The children where not just put into foster homes because the state wanted too. The big problem is that these supposed Christian women and children when asked their names and who are their children/parents all gave false names (thall shalt not bare false witness) and did not co-operate with the law. So if you can’t tell me who your parents are then why should I give you to a person that can’t prove they are your parents. They caused part of their own problem.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:47 pm
@cantbelieveyouguys – who said half the underage girls were pregnant? A significant trick since more than half of the underage (under 15/16) are also under the age of 5 I believe.
@brassmonkey – polygamy is being married to multiple people. That is illegal. Sleeping around and having children with multiple people is not polygamy, nor is it illegal. They are not married according to the state of Texas – what they say among themselves is not the state’s affair.
This was a lynch mob. In fact, Brian, the only part I disagree with you on is the knee jerk description. There was nothing knee jerk about this. The Texas authorities were waiting a long time for an excuse to go in and do this.
As one last note, CPS has consistently been accusing the people at the ranch of lying about their age. Several of the “children with children” have been let go because it turns out they weren’t children and they had driver’s licenses and birth certificates to prove it. One woman was 27. I ask you, who is lying concerning ages here?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:48 pm
p.s.
If half of you people making comments had a clue…
@cantbelieveyouguys
1 – Do you realize that what Texas is doing is half the reason we said up yours to England and wrote the Declaration of Independence?
2 – Do you also realize that what you said about the number of pregnant girls are the exact talking points that Texas CPS wants people to talk about and that they are now back peddling because it was BS.
@Michael M.
You’re kidding me? It’s conservative lawyers that fight this stuff, not liberal lawyers. You are missing the point. Abuse is bad. We all agree. But, Texas is comitting abuse as well. Texas acted on a prank call.
FLDS has a big pay day coming with a lawsuit. The Constitution protects all of us from this crap, and that includes having the government storm into your home and take what they want with one of the broadest search warrants this country has ever seen. You are thanking your lucky stars there’s a reason this judge is telling Texas it was illegal to do what they did.
Abuse is not the issue. Personal liberty is. That said, kids have the right to be free from abuse, and adults have the right to be free from unlawful searches REGARDLESS of the crime.
Russs last blog post..Mr. T says “Treat your mother right.”
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
@Lucifer: 1000 people will have 1000 different interpretations of the Constitution. I personally believe that the intent was there be no correlation at all between the nature of the act committed no matter how heinous and the basic protections provided all including child molesters, murdered, rapists etc. If you do it any other way, you are in danger of becoming …… yes I will say it again…. A lynch mob……
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I think the major issue that has to be addressed are that Civil Liberties are not a one way street. While certainly things were handled in a panic, the fact of the matter remains that there was no easy way to defuse the situation. Inherently one should put the rights of those victimized first, protection of the children was and should have been the primary goal, and the way it was handled ultimately performed that function exemplary.
However, the question that should be addressed is should the state have the right to remove children from their parents? If you say yes, then I would have to say that evidence of abuse is more than adequate enough to remove such children.
However, the state should have charged everyone in the compound as a co-conspirator as to not violate due process and then determined the location of the children and the legitimacy of a co-conspirator charge on a per-person basis.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Just to be clear: there are two completely separate issues here. Polygyny = completely legal and no one else’s business (as long as there are not multiple legal marriages involving monetary claims to benefits, which is what makes it “illegal”). However, child abuse = wrong and everyone’s business, yet UNRELATED to a poly lifestyle. These people are NOT being prosecuted for polygyny, but rather (and rightly so) for child abuse. POLYGYNY DOES NOT LEAD TO CHILD ABUSE. It is not a “gateway” behavior to molestation. This people were sick folks to begin with, and THE REASON IS RELIGION. ALL RELIGIONS ARE EVIL.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:55 pm
@Wibble
15 years old is not even that young. In Canada until recently the age of marriage was 14 and in the UK it is 16. In fact most of the industrialize world has a law ranging from 14-16 however in the rest of the world there is no minimum age. I am not advocating forced marriage or rape. The US is no different then the rest of the world on this point.
People need to make the difference between polygamy and child abuse. These don’t have to go hand in hand. The way these people are practicing it lends itself to child abuse. However the media has done there best to link to two in all instances. This is not always true. If they are opposing this on moral grounds what is their foundation for the ‘moral’ ground of polygamy? Good Christian values…better read you bible. Or a social moral value? So polygamy is illegal and you should go to jail but hide your actions and have an affair and that is acceptable?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Just because you assume they were being “abused” doesn’t mean they are. For all intents, every single “child” taken from the ranch has seemingly been healthy. I’m sure by now if there was a scratch mark or blemish to “prove” that they were held against their will, physically or emotionally abused, that the state would have spoken up and it would have made news headlines.
There was a news article a few weeks back when they were being placed in foster care that there was the possibility that the girls were ahead in their education versus other kids their age. So they weren’t being shielded from the world.
Just because you don’t agree with their way of life does not mean you have the right to impose your will on them. As long as they’re not harming anybody, they should be left alone.
So far, no evidence of abuse exists. There’s no grounds to hold them and keep the families seperated.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
@nick
“If something is clearly obvious should you ignore it?”
This has no place in due process or law.
obvious doesn’t matter one bit. Supporting breaking the law doesn’t matter either. Evidence matters and acts matter and acts only matter if they can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And, you’re statement of “advocates breaking the law” matters little as well. Do you advocate file sharing? Ripping DVDs, CDs, etc… all acts that are technically “breaking the law.” Thankfully that doesn’t grant the RIAA the ability to come into your home and take you away because you advocate it or because your neighbor said you do it.
So many stupid arguments that are fed by media drama, which is intentionally dramatic because it drives eyeballs and dollars.
Russs last blog post..Mr. T says “Treat your mother right.”
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
I’m hearing the words Constitution and rights thrown about quite a bit here but what many posters seem to miss is that unless you extend the right of others to do as they please, then you forfeit the same. You can’t have it both ways. You assume the right to live as you please but refuse to extend the same right to these victims of government thuggery. You separate this into an issue of “us” and “them” but you forget we are all one people. Your minds are not free, turn off the TV and pick up a history book. Better yet, you like talking about the constitution, how about reading it.
Brassmonkey, I think you are a f’ing moron. Read more, write less. According to your logic, if I heard you were dealing dope then that’s grounds for a raid.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:15 pm
The phrase “Protect the Children” is used far too much… Which is why the CPS has far too much power.
Personally.. I don’t believe polygamy/polyandry should be illegal… It goes completely against the separation of religion and law. America was founded as a place where people could practice any religion they wanted so long as they did not infringe on the rights of others, not a place where we force any religious beliefs on people. If two women genuinely want to marry the same man, and are comfortable with sharing him, then they should have the right to do so. I’m not saying I think its right.. but I believe that they should have the right to choose to do so.
Now, that is NOT to say that people have the right to marry their children off to people or force them to be polygamous. That is included under the “infringe the rights of others” clause. Children should have the right to choose their own path.
The problem is children also need to be guided and parents have an enormous amount of influence on how they grow. Many parents choose to guide them into following their own religious practices… This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but many times parents go beyond guiding and into the realm of forcing. This can be as simple as just not telling the children that they have a choice, and when you grow up in an environment where everyone is polygamous its not hard to not know you have a choice.
Parents need to guide, but not force. Yes I feel it is perfectly within parents rights to educate their children about their religion. However, they must also emphasize that religion is a choice. Having a religion because its the only path you know is not truly religion at all. Religion is faith, and its not faith if you do not know that an alternative exists.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Russ,
I agree that this case is already botched and will probably have to be dropped because the state failed to follow the law, but the state should continue to try to find a way to get these children out of this situation. I personally have no problem with profiling. It only makes sense. If a majority of a certain type of crime is committed by a minority of the population it should be ok to look more closely based on there minority status. They already do this with gangs.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:22 pm
I heard a guy say some bad stuff about some people living in a town. I say we nuke the whole town!
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:47 pm
“If there is even one child who shows signs of physical or sexual abuse, that gives us justification to remove all children permanently” — Texas DA.
Using the same logic that the State of Texas used (above), why hasn’t the Government stepped in and removed all children from Catholic families? After all, there have been dozens and dozens of proven cases where Catholic Priests have sexually abused boys.
That’s because the remedies against an individual for allegedly committing a criminal act applies only to that person, not to their neighbor, their brother, their mother, or anyone one else. Just to that person.
Why Texans (or even Patriotic Americans) stood by and let the government commit these crimes against these people without taking up arms in defense of them baffles me.
Now that Texas Court of Appeals has ruled that the taking (aka “kidnapping”) of these children was illegal, when are we going to arrest those who ordered the assault on the compound and the people who carried out those orders?
– http://www.JoeLevi.com
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Check. No response.
Let’s start by the alleged things they’ve done wrong:
1. Underage marrige – Historicly there have been hundreds of instances of arranged marriages of young people to older people (sometimes as drastic as 8 or 9 years old) in the order of establishing relationships for political reasons. Christian morality has dictated the legal age in America, a country with supposed religious freedom.
2. Child abuse – Again, this abuse has yet to be defined and no evidence has been found other than the age differences of the married individuals.
3. Polygamy – from wiki: Marriage is a personal union between people. This union may also be called matrimony, while the ceremony that marks its beginning is called a wedding and the status created is sometimes called wedlock. The act of marriage changes the personal status of the individuals in the eyes of the law and society. The only say the law should have regarding marriage is how it treats married couples, and what it recognizes as such. No facet of wedlock has anything to do with government.
4. Pedophellia – Pedophilia or paedophilia is the sexual preference of an adult for prepubescent children. Prepubescent being the operative word here. These girls were all postpubescent, else they wouldn’t have been pregnant.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:07 pm
@RoyalPeasantry:
You’re incorrect in your statement “It goes completely against the separation of religion and law.” The Law states that the Government (meaning the US Federal Government) shall make no law regrading the establishment of a religion. In other words, the Founders didn’t want the new United States of America to fall into the same trap as England did, where the governing body was effectively told what to do by the official religion (the Church of England).
This isn’t to say that your other points are invalid — quite the opposite. People should be able to worship how, what, and where they may. So long as they are able to care for multiple spouses and children, they should be able to have more than one (I have 4 — children that is
).
There should be a minimum age for sexual consent (15 or 16 sounds good to me, though society dictates 18 — or does it?), and every person should be able to say “no” when being told whom to marry.
But that’s just my two bits… luckily I have an enumerated Right to express them… just as these people have a right to live their lives away from outside interference… Sure, they shouldn’t break the law… but that didn’t stop the Texas Department of Child Services, did it?
– http://www.JoeLevi.com
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:14 pm
@ Otto:
The ends never justify the means, ever.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:18 pm
A couple of points to consider:
1. Underage pregnancy happens all over the world. What is different here is the age of the men. Try to remember back to the early 1900′s up until the 1950′s. Men were expected to be established and able to care of a wife and family, therefore usually waited until their late 20′s or early 30′s to marry. Because traditionally, women didn’t work outside the home, once a girl reached a certain age (14 to 18), they became a financial drain on their families and desired the freedom that came with moving out of the parents’ house. I’m in no way saying they didn’t marry for love also, but there are many practical reason for marrying as soon as possible, and marrying a man which is already established and able to support them.
The age of these girls is not an issue to me. The age of the men is not an issue for me. The issue for me is if they were forced to marry someone their parents chose for them, or if they are being traded to men for favor/status/etc.
2. Polygamy is illegal. Being legally married to multiple partners is the illegal part. Having sex, and children, with multiple people is not illegal. Marriage is a term that belongs to religion, but was mistakenly used by our government to classify a union of two people in a legal sense. In their religion, they men are “married” to multiple women “in the eyes of god.” Unless they are legally getting married to multiple woman by way of marriage license and certificates, then they are doing nothing illegal. I do not agree with them, but I do not believe it is illegal to have more than one partner, or have kids with multiple partners.
3. I have personal experience with the child protective services and while I agree that they do some good to protect children from abuse, their methods are severely lacking. About ten years back, my sister had two children and left them with my parents to pursue her own life. Yes, after two kids, she decided she didn’t like being a mom and ran off. She turned over all legal rights to my parents, who adopoted her kids. Fast forward to about 3 years ago when my sister’s new boyfriend got angry at my dad and reported him to CPS for revenge.
With nothing more than a phone call, the kids were ripped from their homes for almost a week, had to go to special counselor’s, and were interrogated by CPS. My parents went through a week of hell going to appointments with CPS, trying to find someone they could trust to care for the kids, and having to defend themselves because they were not child abusers (neither physical nor sexual!).
My mom cried every day that week, my dad was nothing less than furious. Most of all, they couldn’t belive how their own daughter had betrayed them by supporting her boyfriend in his plot to get revenge because my dad had made him angry. Yes, she knew he was doing it and that the charges were completely false.
The knee jerk reactions need to stop. I do not want these claims ignored, but to rip a family apart with nothing more than a phone call is absurd and wrong.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
I think most of you are missing the biggest point of this article. The point is THEY GOT THE CHILDREN BACK AND THIS IS A BAD THING. Saying “They got what they deserved” is idiotic, because what they got was their children back. When bad things are happening you need to HELP people. These actions HURT these kids. They are now back with their parents who are likely to abuse them because the officials in charge did things incorrectly. They messed up and put these kids in even greater danger. That’s the point of this article.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
The question of the legality of polygamy in the US is mute under international treaties and laws. Because there are countries in this world that recognize polygamy. These polygamists need to stop fighting in US courts and take this to the UN.
I have a friend from Jordan with two wives and both of them live with him here in the US. Because he married them in Jordan where multiple wives are legal he gets them both legally as wives here in the US. (Accept for tax purposes, one is a wife and the other is a dependent.)
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:30 pm
If there was some kind of abuse or breaking of the law then something needs to be done. But I always felt the children were truly victims and how would they ever fit in outside of their compound. I am not saying I agree with polygamy but I also don’t agree with the law ripping these families apart.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Yup, no different than WACO. Sadly, we have become the next Police State under the leadership of Dictator Bush. Welcome to the New Regime! Hiel Bush!
JJ
http://www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
There were a total of 20 girls who became pregnant between the ages of 13 and 17. Of those 20, only 5 are still minors. Of those 5, 4 are 17; the other is 16.
See the court filing, page 4.
So, out of the 468 children taken by the CPS, only FIVE are pregnant.
The court filing:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/22/texas.court.pdf
Read it. CPS was out of line.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Raising your daughter to believe she should be married and pregnant by 15 or so is a danger to them and the state was right to get the kids out of there.
I really can’t see why anyone except a pedophile would support returning them to these perverts.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I think you people need to read the Texas Family Code. It is constitutional. You’re missing the entire point of what the appeals court ruled on. Under the family code, the state is granted the authority for “risk” based removals which is not the case in most states. DFPS gets several calls that are the result of bickering families.
Reasonable effort was not made to prevent removal of the children and the compound was considered as one household. Cases generally go through several process before removals are granted unless there is extreme risk/abuse. Family members have to be called… which in this case it would be family members off of the compound… and it does not appear that that happened. This generally goes on during the course of the investigation.
Either way, the court had the authority to make a decision based on the Texas Family Code. DFPS made its decision and it is up to the judge whether to allow it or note.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:24 pm
its things like that make me really appreciate living in canada
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
The reason everyone is being so forgiving of these 50+ year old polygamist men is because the media does not call them what they really are, which is PEDOPHILES. Get a life. The women in this cult are brainwashed into being baby factories and the men think they have a great thing going. Why should they give it up?
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:38 pm
The government needs to be punished for this too. I hope the FLDS or the parents sue.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:45 pm
To insinuate that this sort of behavior happens in “communist China” is not only ignorant but pathetic. You, sir, Mr. Brian Cuban, are just like the authorities who took away the kids from their “Family” you dismiss in your article.
On one hand you dismiss the actions of the Texas authorities but on the other hand label a completely innocent society such as that of “communist China or North Korea” as wrongdoers.
Hey, you don’t see modern China invading and terrorizing or bullying other countries. You don’t see Chinese School kids going to school with semi-automatics gunning down their schoolmates. You don’t see Chinese organizing cults and having doomsday mass suicides.
You’re an Idiot.
May 24th, 2008 at 1:50 am
As if the children hadn’t been through enough, Texas had to go and rip them from their families. Texas is such an anti-American place, in almost all aspects, and this case just proves it. I’m glad this judge did the right thing and reunited the children with their loving parents
May 24th, 2008 at 2:30 am
@Vince: I have the right to be an idiot. After all, this is not China or North Korea. Whats your excuse…
May 24th, 2008 at 2:35 am
The people are married in their church, a “spritual” marriage. They are not polygamist as we define the term. They don’t have multiple marriage certificates.
Spiritual marriages are none of the states business. But child abuse is. Also, having the children secluded is not a bad thing. I’ll bet not one child from the “compound” wears baggy pants and had long dirty hair. No TV and no contact with the world is a positive in my eyes.
May 24th, 2008 at 2:53 am
@Reyven: This blog is not an analysis of the Appeal Court Decision.This is an op-ed. Regardless of that I disagree with you.. I understand that the argunment is that since the there was technical complicance with the family code there was no due process violation. I belive that using self serving conclusions and statistics to remove children en-mass without having to fullfill the burden of proof required under the code for each indviudal parent-child relationship is in fact a due process violation. I will tell you something else, for every child that removed “by conclusion” those parentage tests are going to be suppressed.
May 24th, 2008 at 3:59 am
I have a feeling that if you were to dig enough this had to do with feminist self-righteousness. Some Feminazis in the state government agencies probably wanted to help what they saw as poor abused, confused women living under a patriarchy.
May 24th, 2008 at 5:14 am
I find it interesting that the legal age for consentual sex in Texas is 17, but the legal age for marriage without parental consent is 18.
May 24th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Many here speak as if there are actual pedophiles there…THERE ARE NOT…YOU ARE MENTALLY MASTURBATING…WITH YOUR IMAGINARY CELL MATE..SO KEEP ON TALKING…YOU ARE THE PERVERTS. YOU ARE THE LAST DAYS SODOMITES LOOKING FOR SOME FRESH MEAT..
(This is to the ones who just dont hear the court ruling, as if they have any more evidence than the court. Proves they perverts. Mark them.
Deuteronomy 32
[30] How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
[31] For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
[32] For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
[33] Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
[34] Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
[35] To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Upon close inspection, it looks like only 12 of 440 children are actually going home after the ruling. Are they holding the rest during the appeal process?
May 24th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
We know that the molestation charges are trumped up charges. What about polygamy? How much actual polygamy is going on? Probably not much. And even if so, is that any worse than a guy or a girl having multiple partners, or dating even? At least they are under the umbrella of marriage. Oh, where is it anyones business deciding what age someone can and cannot get married? I believe the wicked are trying to defile these young women (and young men) by villainizing them that would treat them with respect and honor. They want them to be little whores and cads so they dont make the “winners” of the world look bad.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Dont get me wrong, Im not for polygamy. I believe they are missinterpreting certain passages in scripture. Its not new testament. Besides finding your “Darling” sounds more appealing anyway. (darling= “one and only”)
May 25th, 2008 at 1:34 am
“The last temptation is the greatest treason, to do the right deed for the wrong reason.”
T.S. Elliot
I have no doubt that young girls have been horribly abused in the FLDS but to snatch, wholesale, all the children was wrong on every level. As a result of this action, the sect will go farther off the grid, making it harder for the abused and those that would help them, to get out.
May 26th, 2008 at 12:40 am
I am comfortable under the conditions that the authorities acted in good faith and that the individuals inhabiting the privately owned parcel are ill equipt to the co-oporation that a complaint of abuse on that property prudently did require.
CPS and the authorities responding to a summons for help did not know that over 400 children were living there. If such a large population of children were detected in a commune following a convicted sex offender and rumored sodomizer pedifil are you saying you would lie about your name or hinder a effort to id everyone? In this day and age with Amber alerts?
The individual rights of a person also mean that any kid can pick up a phone and
summons help. CPS and Texus and the feds are watching these followers.
Most parents have nothing to fear from an inquiry from CPS. Even when a crack pot
makes false accusations. The hitch for the bigamy as religion is that the initial interviews with youths did confirm a “Sarah” ect, and it is not the job of investigators to decide based on anything but what they find.
Much of the fuss from the sect members reflects the crazy making system they are
intangled within and the obsessive focus on ‘religion’. Most of us can talk about
ourselves and our families without a redundant referral to our religious view or other private matters. Not with mormons..its about the sexualization of all females to the virtual exclusion of anything else as religion..persicuted religion.
Every effort unique to this event: keeping the adult women with the children and
keeping nursing mothers with their infants and offering adult women options to stay close or go back are twisted to suggest that CPS was not offering attention
given the huge discreet population on the property parcel.
Also, the fact that CPS case management does work to reunite families. As apposed to seeking help voluntarily a court judgment steps in. Follow the ‘template’ and
what one is required and the matter comes to a close.
I do not “have to” understand the fiction of the book of mormon nor do I “have to” respect a white supremist cult. I do not have to like them. I do not have to
agree with their choices and I do not have to “believe” their kids can be abused
in any manner because of “religion”. ID and find any child who has been abandoned
by parents and set them free. Away from these fools and nuts.
The persicution and gradiousiy dillution are loco. Get a marrage license. Just say no to underage sex. Get a hobbie. Get a job. Let the kids have an education.
May 26th, 2008 at 12:57 am
When unidentified populations of children are found in the boarder states in the care of followers of convicted sex offender what about a CPS investigation is
“abuse”? Would that be taking the individual rights of a child, or over four hundred
or “respecting” adults who can not deport themselves in a manner that inspires confidence?
That is not “knee jerk” anger. There is a summons for help. If these kooks were not obsessed about their superstitious ritualized secrets they were perfectly capable of meeting the initial attempt to investigate in a concerned manner appropriate to a large population of children.
Crime is serious. A crime against a child is henious. CPS invetigations take time.
Maybe you feel calm cool and collected mulling over childrape investigations. that all about you.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Yes indeed it was a Federal led Lynch Mob. Pretty said that we have come to live in a Police State with Dictator G “Dubya” Bush at the helm. I bet the nations forefather’s are rolling over in their graves right now in utter disgust!
JJ
http://www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com
June 2nd, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Hey,
I was under the impression that parents who involve their family in illegal activity put their children at risk of being taken from them. If you smoke crack in a house, your kid can be seized. If you rob a bank and leave the kid in a child seat in the back of the van, your kid can be seized. If you counterfeit money in the den, your kid can be seized. If you commit a FEDERAL CRIME, your kid can be seized. Polyagmy IS A FEDERAL CRIME, your kid can be seized.
Plus, has no one asked where all the little boys are/went? Way too many women/girls too few men/boys. Abandoning a son on a street corner somewhere, means you give up the right to keep your daughter too.
These folks are CRIMINALS first. Maybe not convicted, but you don’t, in MOST cases, get to keep access to illegally acquired goods while the police/feds file charges and prosecute the crime. So why should they get their children back while their activities are investigated? Religious freedom does NOT allow you to violate local, state or federal laws.
Societal laws exist to protect the innocent. Where are all the anti-abortion activists on this? They work to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Why are children 18 and younger not afforded the same outcry and uproar?
N
June 4th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
It is my understanding that in addition to the phonecalls from the young woman claiming abuse (which may have been a hoax), the state also had information from an informant on the ranch and from women who had left the FLDS about abusive practices towards children, including older men having sex with girls 12-17 years of age. When authorities got to the ranch they found what looked like multiple pregnant teenagers. Women and children on the ranch either refused to tell CPS workers – or didn’t know -their age (sometimes invoking the 5th amendment), parentage, and living arrangements. In initial interviews on the ranch CPS workers were told that girls saw nothing wrong with spiritual marriages when they were underage. Given all of this, CPS decided to take all the children into custody. I think there are arguments on both sides as to whether this was 1) a wise decision, 2) legal under Texas law, or 3) Constitutional.
In the mandatory hearing 14 days later, it is pretty clear that CPS did not meet their burden of proving there was an immediate danger to the health and safety of all the children, and that there were no other alternative measures short of putting the children in foster care. This is what the Appeals Court and then the Texas Supreme Court addressed. They did not say that there was no abuse and they did not say that the original raid was unjustified.
June 6th, 2008 at 6:55 am
These kids need to be living in mainstream American society. Intervention is needed. What is happening there is sad and wrong! These girls are being forced into a life of slavery and rape. The boys are being abused as well and neglected emotionally. These kids need a chance to grow up and have normal lives…not grow up and have 10 children by the age of 30. They don’t have a choice…they are being abused and brainwashed. Please do something to stop this disgusting practice from going on. These people are hiding behind the face of organized religion to continue in a way of life that is full of greed and self-indulgence for the men and complete subservience for the women. They need to be stopped!!! The state of Texas had every right to go in and take these children out of this disgusting way of life. The young women are in danger of being raped and sexually abused (every day that they live there). The young girls don’t know any better. They are under threat to act any differently. They need rescuing badly. This so called “religion” is like a “wolf in sheep’s clothing”. If it is not corrected…the abuse will continue indefinitely. Further more…these people act like victims of the law…but, they are breaking the law every day.
July 18th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
This is the most intelligent assessment that I’ve read on this topic. I agree–legal lynch mob.
August 21st, 2008 at 3:16 am
I could not agree with you more. In fact I was writing a press release about this a few months ago and got sidetracked and never published it. But in my opinion this just shines a light on the overreaching abuses of the foster care system. I need to publish that paper now. Glad to see someone who I agree with on this issue.